Chris –
All right. Well, I’m excited about this podcast today because this is really the culmination of a friendship that I’ve been able to develop with Kat and Candace over time. But the premise of this is to help you stop chasing your clients and actually start attracting your clients. And so to be here with Kat and Candace, who has one of the coolest podcasts, not nice, clever is such a treat to be here with you guys today.

Chris –
So thank you guys for coming.

Candice –
Thanks for having us. We’re excited to be on with you.

Kat –
Yeah, we are. Yes, yes.

Chris –
Yes. So let me introduce you guys because I think people need to understand, who you are, what you do, and what you’re all about. And this is going to be exciting. So Kat is a multi-disciplined brand strategist and educator with a decade of cross-industry startup experience. And you have branding experience, client experience, project management experience, marketing, and communication.

Chris –
I don’t know what you don’t do when it comes to getting messages out, but you’ve launched so many successful startup options. You’ve done, you’ve managed millions of dollars of revenue, and you actually what’s really cool is you took all that information, Kat, and know-how and went out and created your own agency in 2018. So this is really cool because, you know, being able to connect with people who have worked in corporate America and have worked at startups and understand how hard that is to go off and be an entrepreneur themselves is really cool.

Chris –
But then you’re actually helping people how to use the power of their personal brand to attract clients. And then you have Candice Morales, who is amazing. She was an actual educator before you were a teacher. If I remember this correctly, right? Yeah.

Candice –
I taught middle school English and history for seven years.

Chris –
I mean, this is like, this is really cool because to see somebody who, you know, was in that space and then come out to take that that messaging and that know how to build curriculum and, you know, and messaging to help people now go out and build their brand strategy. You’re a part of Sell It like Sirhan’s group.

Chris –
You’re a social media consultant and you’ve really just helped out so many people with building a brand and from a content perspective, you have amazing content on Instagram. You have 15 years of experience specializing in key partnerships, helping clients master personal branding through an organic content strategy that builds trust. And so I want to, I want to kind of build that like kind of make this all make sense to the people that are listening because if I could do it over, I would have started with you guys five years ago when I started the content, and here’s why.

Chris –
So when you start building content, a lot of times what we start doing is we turn our cameras around and we start talking about a message and we get the message out. And then through that process, you start to develop a voice. And I think then you kind of understand, okay, what’s my space and what am I trying to do?

Chris –
Who am I trying to attract? A lot of people are just trying to get business from it and then eventually there’s an evolution that happens. And I think a lot of people don’t understand that strategy. And what I wish I would have done earlier on was work with you, too. And here’s why I would have started with Kat three, which is what we’re starting to work with now.

Chris –
And Kat is helping me build my brand and helping me understand what my brand is now. I had all these ideas of what I thought I was, and she takes all of that, organizes it, and helps me understand we’re going to stay within these four pillars of building content of who we’re helping, who are Avatar, as all those things.

Chris –
And then I’d come over to Candace and say, Now let’s turn fire into this brand and go to market myself so that everyone knows who I am and start to build that audience so that I am now changing from what I do every day is a cold call to now starting to have people start to come to me because I’ve attracted them the right way because I’ve provided something of value.

Chris –
And I think, you know, many of the people that are listening to this are going to be in the real estate and mortgage backgrounds. And any industry you’re in, your personal brand, and the content you’re providing to people are extremely critical. So if you’re listening, that’s probably why you’re listening because there’s some interest in this. But both of you, thank you so much for being here.

Chris –
And did I capture that right? I did. I did. I did. I captured what you guys do.

Candice –
Yeah, we’re actually going to use that in our new messaging. That was exactly right.

Kat –
It’s super powerful to hear how others perceive you. How others describe it really helps get you out of your own head. So thank you, Chris. That was a gift for us. And I know Candice and I are going to take it and run with it for sure.

Chris –
Yeah, because I mean, you know, I think you told me this cat in one of our conversations, you said, I don’t think people have a content problem. I think they just don’t know who they are. They did have a branding problem. And so.

Candice –
Clearly.

Chris –
You know, let me aside, about a year ago and they said to me, is your content working? And I said, well, I don’t I don’t know what that means. You know, like my content being built so that when I pick up the phone and I cold call somebody that’s in my industry that they know me, they know who I am, they’re like, Yeah, I saw your thing.

Chris –
I’ll take this or I’ll take your call. And it was really to try to manage the conversion and maybe capture more people to say yes. But he was like, I don’t really want people to be calling you. Yeah, that’s where you’re getting it wrong. And so then I started to pull back and started to read, you know, educate myself around all this and then came to you and I’ll say this and I’m going to shut up and really let you guys kind of talk about what you do.

Chris –
But I met you too. It’s the funniest thing. So there’s an event called the Ford event, and it was the second year that this event happened. And it was such a fun event because it was like a culmination of every person I had been following or seeing in my Instagram feed, in my LinkedIn feed, all in person. It was like social media came to life in my industry and every day was such a high energy of people there.

Chris –
I want to say I was like 75, 100 people were at this event. It was an hour, 750 maybe something like 750. And it was an amazing event. And I was with a guy who we had actually worked on his brand together and you and this, this group, it’s on here now Kat and Candice, we had all kind of met at some point, and then I was standing there talking to one of the Lowes that I work with.

Chris –
His name is his name is Bryce. But you know him as the.

Candice –
The lending giant. We love him.

Chris –
And we had been sitting kind of chopping it up. And it’s the funniest thing to stand for me. I’m five-six to stand next to Bryce because he’s like, you know, six, 11 or so. He’s like, it’s ridiculous to be next to him as short as I am. So I saw you guys hovering and I thought maybe you guys are coming back to talk about maybe doing business together from like a branding and content perspective.

Chris –
And, you know, we pause for a second and you guys are, can we get a picture with Bryce? And I was like, that’s when I realized the power of branding and being with Bryce. I noticed it. Everyone knew him because not only did he have an amazing job of connecting, he was engaging with people, he was talking to people he was sitting down with, and having coffees with people that he would get no value from later in life.

Chris –
He just is a good dude. And he took that brand and he took the lending giant and it became a thing, you know. And so I realized at that moment this is something. And if I’m going to be in this space, I got to be as good as him. And to watch that I started before him and to watch that he had a much further trajectory than I was was cool to see because, you know, he works in the I’m proud of him.

Chris –
He’s you know Kat and I have talked about this. He’s my avatar. And so talk to me a little bit about how you are helping people today start and do this. And really and why it’s important if you don’t mind starting with that.

Candice –
This is important for exactly what you talked about, Chris. It’s like chasing clients is a freaking exhaust thing. No one wants to chase clients. There’s only so much energy that you have to chase clients. But creating content that speaks directly to your client’s pain point that she really gets me or he really gets me to understand that’s going to make people want to come to you.

Candice –
And even if they’re not ready to work with you yet, they know and trust you enough to want to start a conversation. And that’s really what it’s about. And I always tell people that it’s also not that my audience member needs to work with me. Like literally Bryce never needs to hire me and it doesn’t matter because he’ll always say my name first when anything is related to what I do.

Candice –
So I will still make money because Bryce will be my biggest advocate out in the real estate space. Right. And so it’s really about making those personal connections. And I want to know, to people who are listening right now, it’s not like Bryce has 100,000 followers. He does it not even close. And he still has been able to really impact people like Kat and me because of his genuineness, because of his curiosity.

Chris –
Mm. That’s what I love about him because he’s, he took and I think I struggle with this at times. You know, we use social media to push, to push out, and to respond. And but he’s using it to connect and he’s using it to build a relationship and he’s using it to engage. I think a lot of people miss that.

Chris –
A lot of people don’t go in and comment, don’t go in and share. And, you know, I found myself in that same space. So why do you think that that’s so important to do when making connections in the industry?

Kat –
Well, you know, for me and how I’ve always approached it and Candice is very aligned. That’s literally why we’re in partnership together. It’s understanding that when you are on social, you have the opportunity to build relationships. That is the primary deal. And if a client if a potential client comes to me and says, I want to make money, I want to make millions, I want to hit 100,000 followers, I say thank you.

Kat –
Next, I’m not the right person for you because that’s just against my ethos. What really works and what Bryce embodies and what Candace doubled down on is that you don’t have to have a massive following to have an impact on people and to have that impact a butterfly effect out and spread your name and build your brand in a very exponential way without you having to do all of the 1 to 1 work, all of the cold calling, all of the follow-ups that that just drains me so much just thinking about it.

Kat –
Because at the end of the day, Candice is both introverted. And we for every introvert listening to this right now, like know that there is a better way. You do not have to chase people. It doesn’t have to be like that. Your introversion is actually a superpower and understands that when you build relationships, you build trust, right? Like Candace said, the no like and trust factor.

Kat –
And once people trust you, they will do business with you, hands down. And if they don’t do business with you directly, they will refer business to you and it will be people coming to you. And that’s that magnetism rather than the desperate gross psycho ex-boyfriend calling you five times, trying to chase you down the type of energy that nobody wants in their life.

Chris –
We call that thirsty.

Kat –
We do.

Kat –
There’s no thirsty ness here. There’s only pleasure and fun and a whole lot of business, too.

Chris –
So you would you mentioned this in one of the comments on a video that I did and I am going to try to capture it because I wish I would have written it down. But you said some long lines of people do business. This friend wants to do business with their friends, not business with companies.

Chris –
Capture that right so talk to me a little bit about what started that comment because I think that’s really what it’s about. It’s about getting people to get to know you without really getting to know you, but building that trust so that when they’re ready to do something that they’re going to you versus saying, you know, an important mortgage, then I’m going to use Chris versus use.

Chris –
They are going to use Bryce before I go and use Rocket. You know, as Rocket may have been what woke me up that I need a mortgage but I know this guy on Instagram that’s really cool that I’m going to call and work. So is that the essence of what you’re saying?

Kat –
Yes. So that phrase actually was coined by one of Candice’s and my like leaders and mentors. Right. And Sirhan coined the phrase of people who hate to be sold, but love shopping with friends.

Kat –
Love that and my spin on it and can as spin on it is that you are a human being first. You were a human being for decades before you got into whatever career it is that you got into. And fortunately, the career you got into is shared by tens of thousands of other people. But as nobody else has is you and your unique story and your habits and your vibes like Chris, you paint you play pickleball with your family on the weekends and go to Hawaii to celebrate your birthday and do all of these incredible things.

Kat –
Nobody else has that. And that’s what people will remember and what people will gravitate toward. And again, it goes back to that attraction, that magnetism. People are like, What does magnetism mean? That’s what it means. That’s what it looks like in practice.

Chris –
That is so cool. That is so cool and so powerful because it’s so true like that. That’s what I wish I would have. Like how I would have coined it people want to shop with their friends and that’s such a true statement. Kat, I love that you’re in the middle of like the city and, and, and I actually enjoy hearing, like, all the hustle and bustle that’s happening out there.

Chris –
I love big cities. No, it’s totally cool. And I want people to hear like you’re out on the streets, you’re in the mix of it. So this is super cool. Candace, tell me about you from the perspective of when you and I, are going to go a little bit of a different direction here, but I’m very I have a deep, deep appreciation for educators.

Chris –
I have a deep appreciation for people who have helped children and have started from that space. And then I’m also more curious because I think a lot of people don’t realize that you can pivot out of that and actually find more passion, you know. So tell me a little bit about your journey with that, because I love that you did this and I want to hear more about it.

Candice –
Yeah. So I was an educator. I was with Teach for America back in oh seven when I started in the classroom, taught there for seven years. And then I actually worked with Teach for America as a director where I coached teachers for five years. After I got to the classroom and I was coaching teachers, I was coaching teachers on their own mindsets, their own values, how to, you know, reach their goals, backward planning, that kind of thing.

Candice –
And really what I realized is I can teach anyone how to do this. I can teach people, frameworks, I can teach people how to overcome some limiting beliefs or mindsets. And I really was interested in curious in what that would look like if I got to choose my clients instead of being assigned, clients. And that was kind of the first thing that that I was thinking because, you know, people they would just drop people in my lap and they may or may not be a good fit for me.

Candice –
But I, you know, the challenge of serving them also, I think, helped me become a better coach. Right. But I was a single woman for a very long time. I’m about to be 39 and I just got married on Tuesday.

Chris –
So when they say thank you.

Candice –
Thank you. So so when I was a teacher in education, I was like, the lifestyle that I want to live is not something that a single woman on this income can actually, you know, support. I couldn’t do that on my own. And so I know, it was a long journey, but I was like, I need to coach on my own, choose my own clients and determine my own income.

Candice –
And when I did that, it was great. For the first year I had you know, I had a women’s networking group at the time, and a lot of people in the community knew who I was and they trusted me and they hired me. But when my warm sphere ran out after year one, I was like, Oh, so what do I do now?

Candice –
Because I didn’t have a marketing background and I think I was well branded within the education space, but I didn’t know how to translate that outside of education. And I hired a coach and she challenged me. She said, I want you to go live every day and I want you to talk to your ideal client. Like, who’s your ideal client?

Candice –
Who do you want to work with? And of course, my answer, just like many of your answers and the beginning as anyone, I’ll take anyone who.

Chris –
Ever will pay me like please help me, you guys.

Kat –
We’ve all been there. We’ve all said yes way too many times. And we’re like, Why have I not learned from this?

Candice –
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just like, you know, I had the desperate energy and I thought I was going to, you know, if I niche down, I was going to turn people away and I was going to lose money. And I know this is a thought we’ve all had. The reality of it is when I niche down and I talk directly to my ideal clients, that person felt like I was for them and they wouldn’t go anywhere else because I understood them the best.

Candice –
And so she challenged me to go live, to want to be alive every day for six months, 180 days. And I went live 157 times in 180 days. And it changed my business forever because you get your message down when you have to talk about something every day. And I, I did that. And once I learned that was my beginning of understanding branding as I could impact the way people see me by the words that I choose to use, and by the pictures that I choose to share.

Candice –
But I Kat knows the story well, but I always tell people that my first speaking gig, my first paid speaking gig happened after I was attending an event. I got on the stage during lunchtime and I got the microphone in my hand and had my friend take a picture of me. I posted that to my Instagram story. Two weeks later, I booked my first speaking gig that was paid because people saw me as a speaker intentionally branding.

Kat –
We do. Everybody is branding themselves. Most people are branding themselves unconsciously and unintentionally. But Kandace you taking that strategic moment and taking that image was an intentional move and it changed your career, right?

Candice –
It changed my career forever. And I remember in the beginning I was really trying to make sure people didn’t see me as an educator anymore, which now I think was a misstep. But now embracing my educational background, I think, has really helped people to understand me even better and understand why I do the things that I do. And why is that?

Candice –
Workshops up that seem like a classroom, why do they feel like they’re back in school, right? Because there are some frameworks that I bring with me because of my profession that really allow adult learners to be a learner, to try something new, and to know that it’s okay if they mess up, right? Those things are all because of my experience as an educator, and when I learned how to brand myself, I was more passionate about telling people You can be whoever the fuck you want to be.

Candice –
Literally, by deciding how you’re going to show up and the words you’re going to use, and the images that you’re going to share.

Chris –
Well, so I think this kind of goes into a little bit and maybe I’m tying these two thoughts differently in the wrong way. But let me kind of go through this. So for the longest time, I used, you know, I was working in corporate America and I would be I was like usually the youngest person in the room.

Chris –
I’m not anymore. But I used to be the youngest person. And I always felt embarrassed that I would look around the room and I would know where everybody went to, to what university, went to a college. They kind of led with it. They were always talking about, you know, and I was like, I graduated high school and I was embarrassed and I never wanted the conversation to come to me on where I went to school.

Chris –
And then eventually, you know, something changed in me where I was like, actually, I feel like that’s a good thing that I have, you know? I mean, that I was able to go this far in my career with only because well, though, while those individuals were in college, I was selling, I was going door to door, hustling, you know, and trying to figure out, you know, my craft, not realizing that I figured it was figuring out my craft.

Chris –
But it’s kind of like you. Like there was a point where you didn’t want to talk about you being a teacher until you realized that that’s a part of who you are and why you’re good at what you do. And people need to know that it gives you ethos in the process to get the massive credibility to be like this person who also knows how to write curriculum.

Chris –
They know that. They know how to format this discussion. But how do you guys deal with imposter syndrome? And because I feel and I know you just did a podcast on this recently, I want to point out this question.

Kat –
We love this question so much.

Chris –
Nice, clever is the podcast and this podcast is so good for anyone to listen, but for, for, but in like just one of the things I wanted to say is that I was I listened to it and I was like, I want my daughter, who’s 26, to hang out with you guys. Like, and by hanging out, I mean listen to your podcast and get to know strong female mentors through this podcast, because I don’t think that there are nearly enough of them that are loud and talking about the shit you guys are talking about.

Chris –
And so imposter syndrome was one of your topics. And tell me a little bit about that because I think we all go through it. It’s like there’s a moment where I’m doing a video and I’m like, What makes me the voice on this? You know, that thought will run through my head at some point and I’m like, Why?

Chris –
Why do I think I should be saying this? And then it’s just it’s a syndrome that happens to us. So let’s talk. How do you get over that? I think we lost Kat. Well, well, don’t worry.

Candice
So a lot is put back in when she goes.

Kat –
I’m here, you know. So I love this question because like Candace was sharing how when she was an educator and then pivoted to becoming an entrepreneur, her initial thought was to hide the fact that she was an educator and, you know, recognizing that you were surrounded by a bunch of Ivy Leaguers and only graduated high school. I had similar we all have that in common because I used to be a nursing school student and I am technically on paper a nursing school dropout I have worked in so many different industries, but I pivoted into startups in the construction space and then I went into lifestyle fitness and then interior design.

Kat –
And Candace knows this. I share this with her. When we first started working with Ryan saw a hint. People would ask me, clients would ask me, Oh, well, how? How long have you been working in real estate? Because you are literally architecting my brand right now. I need to know that you know what you’re talking about. And at first, I was like, Oh shit, because I was new to real estate.

Kat –
But I pivoted and started saying, I’m new to real estate, but not new to working with entrepreneurs. And I’ve understood the power of writing your own story and understanding the rebuttals that are going to come to you and reframing it so that you are reframing it and sharing it with them in a way that you want it to be perceived before they even think of rebutting you right.

Kat –
And when it comes to imposter syndrome that comes up, that has come up for me and continues to come up for me every single time I get my toe into a new talent or a new skill or a new industry or work with a new, different type of client. And my biggest reframe and takeaway is that imposter syndrome is just a signal or a symptom that I’m growing.

Kat –
So I’m actually grateful when I feel imposter syndrome was like, Oh, I’m challenging myself. I’m not static, I am growing and I’m growth-obsessed. So thank you for that little voice. And then let me just like kick you the fuck out because you’re not going to listen to you.

Chris –
I love it.

Candice –
I was on TikTok, I think yesterday and I saw Tik Tok with Barbara Corcoran from Shark Shark Tank. Right. And so she’s like on my last episode, the last pre-filming day for Shark Tank, I was getting ready and I lost my confidence. I, I just lost my confidence. I don’t know what she’s like, I don’t even know if I could lose my confidence, but I just did.

Candice –
And you know, someone who’s that accomplished in their career like you, you never expect that to happen right? And so she’s like, so what I did was in my mind, I went back and thought about every single time I thought, I’m not going to get through this. I don’t know how to do this. Like, what the heck am I doing?

Candice –
So like, I thought about five different times that I was able to overcome that feeling and she’s like an, as I thought about that, how I overcame that, I realized that there’s a theme. I pulled it out of my ass and she’s like, You know what? I’m just gonna pull this out of my ass right now, too. And the problem is that people always think that people know what they’re doing.

Candice –
The reality is that everyone’s winging it, and if you understand that, everyone’s winging it. I learned a lot as a teacher because when I was a teacher and my kids had a question that I didn’t know or they did something that they weren’t supposed to like, talk out of turn. I realized there are not really any rules because if they make us laugh and they talk out of turn, nothing’s going to really happen, right?

Candice –
If it was a good one, I just got to let it go. But you know, so I realized as an educator that there are really no rules and that even in this position of power the teacher doesn’t always know what I’m doing right. And I realize that that goes for every single role ever in life, you know?

Candice –
Does Ryan Zurhaar know what he’s doing every single day with every single deal?

Kat –
I mean, guys, why do you think he’s always telling people to take improv classes, your ability to improv and think on your feet and just allow your instinct and intuition to take over and channel whatever it is you want to? Because there is training that I lead sometimes where they’ll say, Oh my gosh, Cat, that was so good that you just said what you said.

Kat –
I was like, I have no clue.

Candice –
I have to know what I have to play.

Kat –
To replace something like that. Think I walked out but in a good way because you just wing it and it’s just like we have such an ability to get in our own hands and want to be our own worst enemy. Right. That’s the first phrase that comes to mind. Instead of saying we are our own best advocate and understanding and remembering who we are and all that we have accomplished, and just trusting the process and trusting that it’s going to be okay.

Kat –
And what’s the worst that could happen? You make a mistake, you learn something. Yeah, exactly. It’s not the end of the world.

Candice –
And that’s how we deal with imposter syndrome. We pull it out of our asses and just keep going.

Kat –
Do you know? And that’s when every mentor or leader that you look up to loses their confidence. It is not a static thing. It’s not like, Oh, I had imposter syndrome once in 1999 and I’ve never had it. That is not true.

Chris –
So that our brain does this thing to us, that it inserts these thoughts that are meant to keep you in a comfortable state. And so when that happens, it’s almost like a meditation where you have to be able to overcome that thought process and say, I’m going to move this thought out of it and I’m going to move forward.

Chris –
And I know and I notice, like every time that I’ve been nervous about something or I say I hate doing something, I was having a conversation with somebody this morning and I was like, I used to say, I hate events. I hate events. I don’t want to because I got to put I got to organize the whole thing and I got to get the people in the room.

Chris –
I don’t want to be a part of events. And then what did I end up doing is I put out pulled off a very successful, you know, even with like 125 people, changed a lot of lives. But it was because I leaned into it because I was like, This is something I hate. Same with cold calling. I hate cold calling, but I’m good at it because I’m willing to put in the effort to it to do it.

Chris –
And so I think that those times when your brain is telling you to step away or you’re not good enough, or why do you feel like you’re the person to give advice on this is when you lean into it and get really good at it. I think that that should be your cue to listen up. And because I do think that a lot of times, you know, social media can be and friends could even be, you know, toxic.

Chris –
I mean, for a lot of people who jump on to this used to happen to me when I first started doing content. I would think of the one or two friends that are going to have an opinion of that content and sure as shit. I get a text message from them, you know about it that the haters, you know, just like, you know, they’re being nice about it.

Chris –
But in the back of their mind, there’s a little bit of shit talking to them and that becomes, you know, eventually I decided, I don’t care what people think, I really don’t. I’m doing my business and I’m going to continue to grow with what I’m doing and get better at it while they are sitting around scrolling Facebook looking for people to talk shit about, you know.

Chris –
And so what advice do you give to people that that’s their biggest I mean, the biggest fear of social media, in my opinion, is not time. It’s not it’s not mechanics. It’s I’m ashamed of what people are. I’m in fear of people shaming me for this. How do you help people get through that?

Candice –
There are two things that come to mind for me, and then I’ll let Kat drop her $0.02 as well. But one is it starts with your mindset. And as a coach, I’m also a certified life coach. Also, the mindset thing is something that I talk about all the time, but one is that I always tell myself when I tell myself I’m infinitely worthy and I’m infinitely worthy of every opportunity that comes my way.

Candice –
I’m infinitely worthy of, you know, everything that I share is literally of my experience. And there’s nothing wrong with sharing your experience, especially in service of others. Right. And so when I have that moment of like them because I definitely had people saying, who is she to talk about that? She doesn’t know anything about that. Right. I just remember that I’m infinitely worthy.

Candice –
And if it’s like on my heart to speak about this thing because I enjoy it, because I’m passionate about it, then I’m not, I’m going to do it. And so that’s one belief that I think has really helped me consistently say yes to things consistently, even when I didn’t feel ready or when I didn’t feel qualified to show up anyways because I knew I was infinitely worthy and I wouldn’t have this opportunity if I’m not ready.

Candice –
And then the other thing that has really helped me in this vein is like understanding that when people want to criticize me because they see my content and they like, Oh, they think I’m cringing or whatever, I always look at my bank account.

Candice –
Literally, I laugh all the way. Yeah. So I went to LFG when I was at an event. Yeah, two weeks ago. Chris was there. Yeah, I was at that event that Arjun put on and I told so I think I told the crowd I was like when people laugh at me, that’s fine because I laugh all the way to the bank.

Candice –
I love that because that’s what my content does for me, right? So you can laugh at my content. That’s okay.

Kat –
It just going to say, Candace, we need you. We need to get you like a.

Kat –
Mike that you can, like, drop the next time you say something like that. Because for me, that was a mic drop moment. Like what? You know now. So my, what are we going to say?

Candice –
We need swag with that.

Kat –
Oh, I know.

Kat –
Dun dun, we’ll get our assistant on it now. So yeah, your question, Chris. And like Candice’s second point of like, you know, when you notice people, you know, hating on you, when you notice people going off in the comments with whatever they say, one thing that has been really powerful for me that I’ve done a lot of work on myself like I’ve hired my own coaches and mentors specifically focusing on developing my emotional intelligence and my understanding of unconscious programming and how it affects us and drives our thoughts and our feelings, interactions.

Kat –
And my favorite piece of advice to give everyone, if they take away anything from this, is to remember that everything that someone says or does or feels or thinks is based on their own experience. And it has absolutely nothing to do with you. You’re just present there. It’s like ones and zeros. It’s just information that the trolling comments and the DMS, the backhanded kind of passive-aggressive text messages that you get, and all of that.

Kat –
It’s just a reflection of them. It has nothing to do with you and it has everything to do with them because there’s that saying like, hurt people, hurt people. And if you’re truly at peace and embodied and aligned with what you’re doing, like you don’t get hate and there’s a room for hate in your heart, but gratitude is taking up every inch of it, and you’re just so excited to wake up every single day.

Kat –
And the side effect is a lot of people want to work with you and you make a lot of money. It’s not the primary goal. I can’t decide. It’s like she’s just living whatever she feels called to live and it shows. And then people are just sitting there in the corner like, you know, giving you free press, like not really wanting to turn the lens inward and cultivate some self-awareness online.

Kat –
Maybe they’re a little bit miserable or petty or bitter, but that’s their own story. That’s not your story. So that’s like whenever I see that and not to say that I’m perfect all the time and I’m completely neutral all the time because I do get triggered like imposter syndrome comes up for Barbara Corcoran from time to time, my triggers do come up, but the triggers are opportunities to pull those fuzes so that it makes me even more able to just live in my own power and truth and not be hijacked by other people’s stories and programming and triggers.

Candice –
I think a couple of things that I would like to say to new content creators who are listening right now are people who want to create content. And having gotten started is one your friends and family will be your first haters. That’s because.

Candice –
Have so weird that they will and they will because they don’t know this version of you yet.

Kat –
Yeah, they know.

Candice –
They feel like they should. They feel like they should know all of you. But this new version of you that you’re stepping into is so new to them that it feels uncomfortable for them. And so they are going to be your first haters because of that. The strange thing is that strangers will really like you because they didn’t know you before, so they just assume this is who you will have always been.

Candice –
Right? Right. So that’s the first thing I would say. And the second thing I would say to anyone who’s creating new content and when you walk into your office or your brokerage, whatever it is, and someone’s like, Oh, you’re on tick tock now just say, Yeah, because what are they going to say? Yeah and right. Like, yes, exactly.

Candice –
Because what are they what do they have to say after that? Like really nothing unless they are straight up being an asshole. Right. So like they really don’t say anything after that. And also I tell my people to know that that’s a sign that it’s working because they’re seeing it.

Kat –
Right from.

Candice –
The beginning, whether they’re liking if they can comment, even if it’s a kind of backhanded weird. Yeah, it doesn’t matter because it’s working.

Chris –
Absolutely. I mean, you know, I just have noticed that I’ve always said this like the moment I always kind of joke about it with people that like, they’ll start to get a big following on their Instagram and then immediately start to see the fake accounts start to pop up. And as soon as the fake accounts start to pop up, I’m like, You’ve made it, you know?

Chris –
It’s just like hate comments. Like, as soon as I start getting hate comments, I know that I’m triggering somebody and I’m creating and I’m forcing thought processes on them. And I’m not necessarily worried about, you know, if you can watch my stuff every day because it pisses you off, you know, like every now and again, I’ll turn on a news cycle that I know is going to just trigger me just for the fun of it.

Chris –
You like, what are they saying today? I, I love, you know, kind of, but, but it’s called hate watching and people are going to do it. And I welcome it because if you want to comment if you disagree with me, I just want to have that open discussion with people that I didn’t know. And to me, that’s just another form of connection.

Chris –
As long as you’re not a jerk, you know, and I and I and I feel like there’s there are some women in my office that are really good content creators. And to see what women go through from guys, I just I’m appalled by it. Like, I just, you know, and I can understand where that would push somebody not to want to do it.

Chris –
How do you guys deal with that? Do you just block them? Do you get over it because you deal with a level of commentary that I don’t think men deal with? And it’s unfortunate, but that’s the world we live in. But how do you guys deal with that?

Kat –
MM That’s a great question. I think it goes back to understanding and accepting what is within your control and what is not within your control. I cannot control societal norms, prejudices, and dharmic systems that are designed to discriminate against certain subsets of populations and war to privilege an advantage to others. That is out of my control. What I can control is create positive impacts that are, you know, that looks like me taking action, that’s aligned with my values and not taking it personally either.

Kat –
Because of the commentary, yes, I do see it. We do have to deal with it, but I don’t need to make myself a victim about it because then truly in my mind, they win, right? And then what do you think? Can I say this is a great question?

Candice –
If this is like a sexual advance weird thing, one strike, you’re out for a time block. I just do whatever I like to.

Kat –
Oh, yeah. No questions. No questions. Police report. Fine. Okay.

Chris –
Real quick, let me just jump in. Sorry to interrupt you, but I have never had that happen to me, ever. But. But this happens.

Candice –
Oh, yeah, it does.

Kat –
It’s happening. World.

Chris –
Right. That’s where the biggest difference is. Because like in my head, I don’t have to have rules created for one strike. You’re out that you’ve created. You’ve developed it and said, okay, here’s how I’m handling this. That’s the difference between women on social media. But that scares someone away from wanting to do this. And so, you know, that’s why I brought up the conversation.

Chris –
But I love that you’ve created just like you have a very steadfast, you know, on how you handle it.

Candice –
And I think that with that, like having that rule takes out the emotion and feels like, oh, another one of those blocks that it’s just.

Kat –
You kind of what happens and.

Candice –
Yeah, and you move on, and the other thing that I do when it comes to this so yeah and I lost my train of thought. It’s okay.

Chris –
All right. I interrupted you. I’m such a jerk. Sorry. No, not at all.

Kat –
I love. Oh, if.

Candice –
This is someone who’s just, like, kind of, you know, disagreeing with every single thing that I say, that’s annoying. So I probably respond to them the first couple of times. And if they’re just like, I know being a troll, I will also just block them. I think this is what I was going to say.

Candice –
I think about like Instagram or TikTok like this is my home and some people are welcoming it and some people are not. Yeah. And I get to decide.

Kat –
The boundaries that we set. We are I’ll use the word ruthless because that’s a very masculine word, right? We are ruthless and non-negotiable when it comes to our boundaries. And what you see on social when you scroll is a reflection of what you’ve allowed being there. So if you don’t like what you’re seeing, do something about it.

Kat –
And if, you know, whenever I have an interaction that I’m like, oh, that, that feels weird, that should give me. Okay, let’s pull that Fuze opportunity. Go. Thank you. Move on. You’re still being a jerk. Okay. BLOCK Like and what makes it easier for me to maintain those boundaries is also surrounding myself like Candace, who has a no-bullshit approach to it.

Kat –
Also, it’s easier to do it when you are doing it, not alone. When you’re doing it with somebody else, when you see other people leading by example, it kind of is like positive reinforcement. And it’s not just you solo against the world because that’s like lonely and nobody wants to be alone. But it’s really nice to have, like, strong female leaders and mentors and friends as your role models and advocates.

Kat –
That’s another huge like as I’ve gone through my twenties. You mentioned your daughter was 26. The fact that like you know, you recommended our podcast to her because you want her to have role models. Like I was like, I wish I had a role model like Candace or myself when I was 25, or 26 because those were some rough times in my twenties.

Kat –
And, so yeah, that’s, that’s just those are strategies that we’ve developed that work for us. And it probably contributed very strongly to why we called our podcast Not Nice, Clever and just our like no-bullshit approach to really everything, not just business, but in our personal lives too. I mean, we’re ruthless with our boundaries and all regard, period, end of the story.

Chris –
Well, you know, I want to unpack so much of that, so real quickly and I’m going to we’re going to go talk podcast. But let me jump into this really quickly with you, because I do think that what attracted me to your podcast, just right Out The Gates, was this unapologetic idea of We are who we are.

Chris –
But, I don’t ever have to think about it in terms of that with myself, right? Like I, you know, you and I have talked about this a little bit, Kat, but one of my biggest things in the industry is I really want to give diverse individuals an opportunity to really have a voice. And there there’s some frustration with that sometimes because no matter how much of the microphone you want to give to somebody, they just don’t know what to say or maybe they just don’t want to use it.

Chris –
Right. And that’s okay, too. But I also feel that there’s a lot of people in our industry that are undervalued, underserved and, you know, just kind of forgotten. And I want to find those individuals and I want to help them build something that they never believed was possible. And in that, you have a multitude of diversity that comes along with that.

Chris –
And you guys are giving strength to the young female. And when I listen to your podcast, I’m so you know, that’s why I was like, I want my daughter to know that it’s okay to be who she is because I see that she’s one person with me, and then maybe a completely different person in the workplace. And you said something that I’ve done walking into a boardroom thinking that I’m the youngest person in the room and knowing that I’m a minority is that I used to say I’m sorry before I spoke and you guys talked about this on your podcast, and I was like, why did why would sorry, guys.

Chris –
I just want to say like, no, why would I do that? Why would anybody do that? But somewhere along the lines that just we thought we were being polite, but there was a reason subconsciously that we did it, but also subconsciously the way the room made us feel. And so tell me, like, how did one so that’s more of a statement.

Chris –
But then you came up with not nice, clever. Talk to me about the name and then how kind of comes into what I’m talking about.

Candice –
I think for me and I mean, I think for both of us it was about giving people permission to not always be nice or do the nice thing. And I think a lot of this for me where I came from is that I saw men do things in business that maybe I wanted to do, but I didn’t know how to do them.

Candice –
But I realize their strategy was different than mine because I was too concerned about what this person was going to think. And men, I think, make decisions differently. I think it’s like data and numbers. This boom. Here’s the decision. And I wanted to be more like that because I think that always considering everyone else before me made my progress slower than it needed to be.

Chris –
You’re analyzing the data first you wanted to switch it to instead of the people’s feelings. What is the data business?

Candice –
Yeah. What’s the data tell me? And how can I just pivot and not be like, oh, you know, this part of my business failed? It’s like, no, I learned this lesson. Now I’m doing this and here’s where I’m going. And I wanted to not spend so much time worrying about that emotion. And I realized that this is like a problem that women specifically, I think experience is that they’re, you know, so worried about being nice and doing the nice thing for everyone else.

Candice –
It’s something I wish I would have learned earlier. Like, just be more clever about stuff. Just be a more swift decision-maker.

Chris –
Do you mind telling me about the time, if you can remember it, that you came to that like this was the problem? I would have handled it this way. But now that I’m going to be clever about it, I’m going to handle it this way. And you came to the outcome that you expected, like it. It ended up being like a methodology change of what you normally would have done and you saw the outcome you wanted.

Candice –
I don’t know if there was a thing, but I.

Kat –
Know its scenario people.

Candice –
So cops say the scenario. But I will say there are two people in my life who have impacted this and one is my fiancee. But my husband knew the word for me. One is my husband who owns multiple businesses. And I would just like to hear him on the phone and he’d be like, okay, that okay, let’s do this instead.

Candice –
Boom. And then he would not think about it again. Just move on to the next thing. And he would be like for two days I’d be talking about how this didn’t work out or whatever, and I would just listen to this conversation to be like, He’s such a swift decision maker. And then Ryan saw him. He just watching him pivot and make new decisions and change and not be afraid of that.

Candice –
Both of them seeing that, I was like, I want more of that energy in my life. And I guess I got it because here, here I am, but I cannot tell a specific scenario.

Kat –
So. Well, the scenario that came up for you that I recall was when you were negotiating your rate for a live workshop and you and I were going back and forth. We were talking about it, we were texting about it, and you’re like, Should I ask for this and this? But maybe I should start here. And I’m like, I’m like, what?

Kat –
Feels right? Like what? What will not what will you not resent but not feel weird and sales about that’s the sweet spot, right? Then I determined.

Candice –
And I told Kat a number and then I got on the call and I just did an extra thousand.

Kat –
You just threw a national pound on there? Yeah. And then you tell him you’re like, I got it. I’m.

Candice –
I was like, Oh, yeah, because I was like, how am I going to say this number? And she’s like, okay, that’s apples. Good. Yeah. No, I was like, okay. And it felt like a scary number. But, you know, and then you. Yeah. And she was like, okay, cool. Then I got on the call. I was like, I could I could do whatever number I want.

Candice –
And just like.

Kat –
What’s the worst that they can say? No big deal. No, the worst.

Chris –
I had a right. I will say his name because I don’t want people to get him on the cheap. But on the flip side of that, I had a budget. I had a budget for a deal I was doing for I was bringing in some speakers to talk to my team. And I asked him what he would his fee was and he said 35 grand.

Chris –
And I was like, oh, bro, like, I don’t have that that we’re not going to do this. And he was like, Well, give me a number. I, I’ll give you 2000. And he was like, Cool, I’ll be there. And I was like, What? Like that? That was the easiest thing I’ve ever had. I was like, this is, you know, so, so yes, you can say whatever number you want.

Chris –
And it was a bit and you know, I already have a number of mines and you have a number of mines and how do we get there? You know, but it was so crazy because he’s the guy’s a really amazing dude. And, you know, to be able to come in 35 grand and I know he gets it, you know, but I wasn’t I bought it at that moment.

Kat –
And everything’s negotiable until. It isn’t until you hit someone’s boundary and then, boom, that’s business.

Chris –
So so you guys have been able to really build not only just your branding, but you’re building a podcast. And, you know, when you guys got together in a room or on a phone to discuss what you wanted this to be, is it on track to do our to has it started to take a life of its own?

Kat –
I would say, yeah.

Candice –
Yeah, I, I feel like so the story about how the podcast got started was can be live on Instagram, and everyone was messaging us after and saying, oh my gosh, you guys are so great. Live together like you have such good energy, such good chemistry. Like they’re telling us, like so many things. Even after we went live, I was getting text messages, I was getting text messages and she just sent me a text and was like, I want to start a podcast.

Candice –
I’ll like, Yeah, well, it.

Kat –
Was late at night. I got home, from running errands. We, we were doing these other like monthly zooms, like the same type of energy, like people wanting to stay on forever and just listen to us talk and we’re trying to plan. It just wasn’t working. And then, yeah, I was sitting in my car, I turn off the car and I was like, Oh, let’s start a podcast.

Kat –
And she was like, Done. And then from there, that was earlier this spring and it’s been really easy. Like, I know, like starting a podcast for those who have not done one, it seems daunting and you think that there’s all this equipment you need a producer and the tech and the platforms and the marketing and. Yes, yes, yes.

Kat –
But like, make it simple. And when you’re doing it with someone who you really enjoy being around, who you would talk to for hours anyway without there being a project attached to it, doesn’t feel like work. You know.

Candice –
These are literally conversations that we have on a daily now. We’re just recording them.

Kat –
And allowing others to benefit from them. Because again, going back to we’re both introverts and it’s so funny too because when we say introvert, I think there’s another like idea or preconception about a female who’s an introvert, and going back to like why we called this podcast not nice, clever. It’s because like going back to even programming of how little girls are taught to be nice, taught to play with Barbies, talked to like the color pink.

Kat –
My favorite color has been red since I was like two years old. And I have like embarrassing photos of me as a nineties baby to prove it. And I’ve never really subscribed to wanting to be nice, but what I’ve really enjoyed being creative and clever and asking how and I am you everyone has seen Jurassic Park here, right?

Kat –
And people listening to this. Oh, I hope you’ve seen Dress Park. If not hit pause and immediately go watch Jurassic Park. But there’s that moment at the end of the movie when they’re super cool, like Slick Velociraptor Hunter with the hat and the outfit with his rifle and his undoing. And he’s like, about to, like, shoot down the velociraptor.

Kat –
And what does she do? She pops up right behind a right beside him and he looks over. He’s like a clever girl. And then she, like, morphs into that, like, yes.

Candice –
And Hudson. And that’s how we got the podcast name.

Chris –
I mean, it’s rare that.

Kat –
Maybe, maybe in the back of my mind. But yeah, I think the other thing too, because one Chris, I love that you’re wanting to give a voice to, you know, diversity and to hand the mic to someone, even if they’re not quite ready or they don’t know what to say, at least you’re giving them the opportunity. Because one thing that I’ve been extremely aware of in my life, even though I am a blond-haired white girl living in the US, so like on paper and visibly under the first impression, I have a lot of advantages from that, but I was raised by immigrants and my mother was an Asian-American, Japanese-American immigrant and she lived in California

Kat –
in the San Francisco Bay Area in a time when it was not an easy time to be happy, to be half Japanese, half American, and to have a former army, you know, serviceman as a father, and then literally 100% Japanese who barely spoke English as our mother. And so, like I grew up with those immigrant stories and like hearing Japanese and English and Spanish in my household and being extremely aware of how, how privileged I was and not wanting to waste that opportunity by like apologizing for just existing because there was so much sacrifice that was made before I was even born to allow me to be here.

Kat –
So why wouldn’t I make the most of it? Like, isn’t that the best way that I can honor my family and, like, be my true self and like, make the most of it? So, yeah, I just wanted to share that because that’s, that’s been something that’s been on my mind and, and, you know, our recent conversations of what we’re going to do with your rebrand, it’s exciting and it just is more evidence of alignment and who you surround yourself with.

Kat –
And when things are aligned, as it flows and it’s easy, it doesn’t have to be hard.

Chris –
Well, it’s interesting you say all that because I, I feel like every time we talk, there’s a very sense of, you know, that background coming into play in some shape or form. And you understand what my mission is. And I think it’s why you understand. It’s because you, you know, you understand all sides of it.

Chris –
And you do. You’ve lived it. And you, you know, you’ve been a part of that. So I do appreciate that. And I think that it isn’t like I was. It’s funny you say that Kat because when I was looking at your brand bio or your bio, it didn’t talk about it. But I’m like, how does she insert that?

Chris –
Because I think it’s an important piece of who you are. But, you know, whole another conversation. But, you know, when I think about you, too, and what you guys are doing, I really think that it’s important for people to not only connect with you guys but figure out ways that you guys can work together. Now, I know you guys all have you know, you have jobs and you’re very selective on the clientele that you’ll pick up, but you know, when you can take branding and figure out what your personal brand is based on the values that that that you hold and who you’re trying to help in the world and then add content

Chris –
and marketing to that, then you’ll have massive exposure and massive clientele. And I think people are missing that fundamental mental, you know, idea that where someone like you too can really help. And so you guys have a massive opportunity to change young, young, you know, millennial adults that are coming into this world and not knowing what to do or not knowing how to organize it.

Chris –
And I can already see with what you’ve done me that it’s going to be massive. And so, you know, Candice, we’re just in the beginning of this and then you and I are going to be working together, hopefully, if I’m cool enough to be on your client roster list and tell me real quick, like, how do people find you guys?

Chris –
And so Kat’s, we’ll start with you. If I want to follow your content, where am I going?

Kat –
Yeah. So you can engage with me most on my Instagram at Kat Tory, XO. And you know, one thing that is really going to be a huge mission of mine and ours, like in this new year, is combining our unique superpowers. You know, Candace’s ability to help people show up and show off and my ability to mirror and use and inspire people and identify their brand.

Kat –
And we really want to take it to you, like take it to the people and, you know, host workshops and host speaking engagements where it’s not just speaking and inspiration and excitement, but it’s like, no, it’s leveraging Candace’s background as an educational curriculum that actually inspires action and then us providing the direction like I truly want to continue to build relationships online, but I would love to be able to like cement those relationships offline and truly have an impact.

Kat –
And I just know, like my message is strong. Absolutely. But it’s always stronger with others, you know? And I love the impact, like when Candace and I have spoken in the past together and when we’ve done workshops, it’s just so much more rewarding in person to see the effects of it and to read those messages afterward.

Kat –
So, you know, that’s the way that we want to work, you know, moving into 2023. And like you said, we are very, very selective, but it’s only because we have very high standards and we know that you’re amazing at what we do and we want to be able to help other people who are aligned with us, just reach others and to be able to like to live their brand and build their businesses and a real freedom feeling type of way.

Chris –
I already see it now that nice clever marketing agency, branding agency like you guys are going to do big things and you know, it’s well worth it. I mean, it’s well worth the price that you’re paid that you’re charging to do this because people need this. People need this. And I talked to an alum who is it’s a there’s a high performing low out of Las Vegas.

Chris –
And she’s from Colombia. Really cool. And, you know, she started dabbling content and I asked her today, I said, hey, I’m doing a podcast later. What’s the number one reason that you’re afraid or you’re holding back from actually building your brand because you have an amazing story to tell? She’s been doing this for three years and is just crushing it and has fire.

Chris –
And, you know, but she’s not doing the social media in the way that I would love to see it. In terms of getting her message across, it’s very like very mortgagee, you know, like low rates or.

Candice –
Dictionary of.

Kat –
Snowboarding. People don’t get it just goes over their heads. Yeah, but.

Chris –
It’s like if people knew you and knew your personality and how snarky she is and how funny, like, just witty, you know, and, like, amazing, right? She said it was his time. It’s his time. And I was like, okay, so what do you guys say to that person that’s saying, I don’t have time to build my brand?

Candice –
I would say that you are not. You’re thinking about it backward. You’re trying to fit content in the cracks of your business when really content is the thing that is the most powerful tool in your business so that you can get off the hamster wheel. And if you are the lead generator.

Candice –
Then you. You’re Gucci. You’re Gucci. That’s everything, right? That is. That’s all you need. And so it’s because she’s trying to fit content creation in the cracks. Instead of seeing content creation as the work brand building is, the work. And if you shift your mindset to understand that, then you’re not going to be, you know, always in it.

Chris –
That’s the clip right there. I mean, just give it a couple of weeks. That’s what we’re going to be playing on Instagram of you guys talking about that that is that’s powerful you so much I mean you know getting to know you guys the fact that we met at Ford the way that we met I found off now and Kat I think I was number I think you told me I was the eighth person you met.

Chris –
And it was really quick with Kat. So I asked Kat a bunch of questions before I decided to to to sign up and be a client with her. And I had already decided I’m going to do business with her because I liked her and I thought she was cool. But I was curious how she would answer these questions. And every one of them was clever and she knew why I was asking them.

Chris –
And she didn’t fall for the trap I asked her for like, Oh, how many people have you helped? She’s like, Enough. That was her answer. I was like, I’m.

Candice –
Brand.

Chris –
I am high. And by the way, this is like, that’s why I was so excited to work with her because I was like, this. She is a badass and it’s on. Yeah, I’m so excited. Mean you have no idea how much I appreciate you guys taking the time today. I know you guys are both very busy. I’m proud of the work you guys are doing and I want to continue to figure out ways that I could be in the room with you, with you both and, you know, learning from you, too.

Chris –
So thank you for coming on today. And I hope that we’re able to inspire some people today to just start to focus on building their brand and getting out and doing content and being powerful females in the marketplace. So I really appreciate you guys for what.

Candice –
You do so much.

Kat –
Thank you for the opportunity, Chris. It’s once in a lifetime. We really, really appreciate it.

Chris –
Thank you, guys. I’m going to put this guys. So please and wait. Candace, can you tell me I’m sorry I didn’t do this, but can you tell me where people can find you?

Candice –
Yes. Find me on Instagram. Elevate with Candace and my DMS are always open. They love to chat with you. I’m never too busy for you. I hear that sometimes. Like any one of them, you because you’re so busy, you know, like.

Kat –
Don’t apologize just.

Candice –
To my DMS. Exactly. And check our website out. Not most clever dot com.

Chris –
Not nice clever dot com. Find the podcast anywhere you find the podcast. I’m you know I’m addicted to it I think it’s such a good podcast. Please guys follow these two and you will learn and you’ll be smarter for doing it. So thank you guys so much. And until next time, I’ll be seeing you guys. Take care.

Kat –
Thank you. Right.